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Post by jules on Mar 25, 2014 14:48:00 GMT
Hi all, Another question about the deck construction of Vasa. This time about the location of the carlings and their placement in the beams, and the location of the ledges. To support the deck planks between the deck beams, ledges are placed between the waterways and the binding strakes (schaarstokken). To support the, rather thin, ledges, carlings are placed between the beams. I included the drawing below to show what I mean. Willem Vos explains in one of his 'Bataviacahiers' that with Vasa, the recesses made in the beams to accomodate these carlings, are closed at the top. He concludes from this that the carlings were placed between the beams and, subsequently, the carlings had to be placed while the beams were placed. (On the basis of this, Vos also concludes some other things about deck construction. But that is not in any way compatible with what we see at Vasa, or with Witsen for that matter. Vos succeeded in puzzling me for a long time with this.) When I look at the drawing I included, I can see the ends of the carlings sitting in the beams. This suggests that the recesses in the beams were open at the top and that the carlings could be placed after all the beams were placed. Who is right here? I can also imagine a solution with both solutions combined: one end of the carling positioned in a closed recess, the other end positioned in an open recess. A second question concerns the location of the carlings on the different decks. In the drawing above, just a small section of the support for the upper and lower gundeck is shown. The rest has to be guessed at. The drawing of the upper deck (included below) is not very informative either, as it, again, only shows parts of the supporting deck construction; which is nearly non-existent anyway. Since the drawings included with VASA I do not show the carlings either, I wonder where all the carlings were fitted. The ledges can be seen in Vasa Plan 2, but only at the midship location. And at that location, for obvious reasons, no ledges can be seen in the position of the hatchways. So the position of the ledges in the deck sections between the waterways and the binding strakes is not clear. Are complete drawings of the deck supports available for each deck? Are they included in the 'old' drawing set of Eva Maria Stolt that Fred is willing to publish on this forum? I hope so. If not...... Who can help? Jules (P.S. I do not know what the provenance of the included drawings is. Downloaded them from the internet, somewhere, sometime. The texts are in German.)
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Post by fredhocker on Mar 26, 2014 9:26:59 GMT
Before I answer this question, I need to ask a potentially awkward question of my own. Many of these recent technical questions are not really about model building, which is why I agreed to help with this forum, but more generally about Dutch shipbuilding as exemplified in Vasa. We are now embarking on a path that is essentially asking me to publish the hull study of the ship one little bit at a time on this forum in order to facilitate Jules's research for a book he is writing about Dutch shipbuilding, rather than to assist in the construction of a model. I would rather not "publish" the hull documentation and analysis in a piecemeal fashion like this, especially since I am supposed to be completing Vasa II on the rigging (so modellers will stop nagging me about when it is coming out ). It takes a fair amount of time to answer these technical questions and then to pursue the debate that frequently results, and this is starting to eat into my research and writing time. I would like to be helpful to everyone who wants to know about Vasa, and to share what we are learning in the research program, but when it comes to all of the details of the ship's construction, especially those details unlikely to find their way into a model, I would ask for a little restraint and patience, to give me the time to produce proper drawings of the ship and to publish the hull in a thorough and integrated manner. And to finish Vasa II first. I am a one-man band here, and in addition to answering questions and writing books, I also have to manage the cannon replica project, which is at a high tempo just now, educate our guides and museum teachers, give tours of the museum to visiting VIPS, and act as the Scandinavian regional editor of the primary scientific journal in maritime archaeology, not to mention supervising and advising graduate students writing theses on Vasa material (I have edited two Masters theses on Vasa finds and reviewed three article manuscripts in the last two weeks, for example). Now, on to the carlings and ledges. The German drawings Jules has found are from a set of model plans produced in the 1980s, I think, and that are still widely available. They are ok in general, although many of the details are off. Vos is incorrect about the carlings, they are not captured between the beams. On end sits in a closed mortise, and the other rests in a mortise which is open at the top, so that the carlings can be inserted after the beams are in place (as Jules guessed). The pattern of the carlings varies with the deck. There are almost none in most of the orlop (the after quarter of the orlop is framed like the gundecks), while the gundecks have two or three carlings between each pair of beams (the German drawing above gives some idea of the pattern in the gundecks, which runs through most of the length, but gets more complicated at the ends) and the upper deck has slightly fewer (here the German drawing is not accurate at all). We do not yet have an accurate drawing of the structure beneath the deck planks, since the initial priority in publication was the surface, in order to make distribution plans for the small finds. All should be revealed in Vasa III, which we have already started on. Fred
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Post by jules on Mar 26, 2014 13:57:13 GMT
Hi Fred,
Many thanks for the very quick responce.
And about that other matter, your 'awkward' question. Please don't feel pressured to answer my questions. I am trying to tap into the knowledge of all members of this forum, not into your knowledge only (see my remarks in other threads). The other members must have gained knowledge while building models or in other ways, and, again, I would love to hear about their experiences. But, untill now, the only technical response I get, is from you. I tried to tap into knowledge already available, and found out that this knowledge is not yet readily available. There still is a lot of time needed to gather it. No problem, just say so. Please, do not get stressed over this.
Another thing. I was not aware that this was a forum for model ship builders only. Not being a member from the first hour, it looks like a general Vasa-forum to me. Luckily I can say I build models, so I hope I still qualify. One of the first models I built (as a boy), was a model of Wasa (the resin Airfix one), and that started my interest in 17th century wooden shipbuilding. My credo in model building is: if you do not know how it is built, how are you going to make a model from it? This means that, as I explained before, I love to get into detail as much as I can. Surely Clayton must have gone to that level of detailing with you as well, to build his 'best detailed model of the world' of Vasa. After all, the whole idea of writing a book on Dutch 17th century shipbuilding, originated from trying to reconstruct the ship Gouden Leeuw of 1666, only... to build a model of it! Since it became clear to me that Vasa was built in the same way as 'my' Gouden Leeuw, and it became clear to me that a guy named Fred Hocker was ready, willing and able to answer all sorts of questions on Vasa at an athletes pace, on a forum called 'Warshipvasa', I expressed my amazement and tried to benefit from this exceptional situation. Especially when the Dutch shipbuilding subject was brought up by Matti. I can only hope that I have expressed my amazement and gratitude enough to you.
And, you have to believe me, I've been trying hard to give something back as well. But, the only thing I can give back, I am sorry to say, is some knowledge about Dutch shipbuilding, not specific knowledge about Vasa. I hope it has become clear to you that I am more than ready, willing and able to return the favour in some way. If not, I'm sorry.
With kind regards,
Jules
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Post by matti on Mar 27, 2014 12:57:55 GMT
As off topic as this post is I think it may be good to give a small background to this forum, at least how I look at it. Clayton started a yahoo group for discussions about Vasa modelbuilding years back. As now Fred and Clayton was giving help and answers to anyone asking, wich is a fantastic thing they where/are doing. Most questions where related to model building and only few about the time she was built (some aksed by me). A few month back Yahoo changed everything in their structure, making it horrible to use. So the building group moved here to this forum. It led to a better overview of topics and is more user friendly. But the number of questions has also picked up speed. The old Yahoo group to me seemed to have a slower pace. And I hope this doesn't make Fred or Clayton overwelmed.
The subject of Vasa is special in my opinion. It raises questions beyond how a detail looks and makes one wonder why it looks like that; the questions easily goes beyond model building into understanding history and art. Having an interest in Swedish history, and especially the 1500 and 1600, I have learned so much from this group of people, Fred and everyone else are so very generous and shares their knowledge. It is a rare thing really and has changed me how I try to help others if I get questions on forums. I also feel in debt as it's hard to "pay back" all the help and it's one of the reasons I volonteered when Clayton asked for a back up admin. It was a way to give the time given back.
Jules raises an important point: It does look like a general Vasa forum now not for model building only. Is this a good thing or a problem?
Fred, I think I speak for the whole group when I say that I dont want this forum to end up feeling like a burden for you, is there anything we can do to help or think of?
/Matti
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Post by jules on Mar 28, 2014 12:34:24 GMT
Hi Matti,
Thank you for your history-of-the-forum update.
And thank you for explaining to me why Vasa and this forum are special to you.
I can not speak for the group of course, but I would also like to know how we can help Fred and Clayton.
Regards,
Jules
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Post by fredhocker on Mar 28, 2014 14:28:55 GMT
Sorry if I sounded a little peeved earlier, but my to-do list is starting to get out of hand here at the museum, which is taking me away from talking to people about the construction of Vasa, something I like doing. I gues this street runs both ways!
Although this forum started as a modelling group, and I joined largely so that I could answer questions once for everyone rather than have an overflowing email inbox, it has become an increasingly general Vasa forum (even before Jules joined). I don't mind this, if it is what everyone wants. However, once we get into long discussions of how things were done on the ship, it takes more time than answering straightforward "how many furbins are there on the jib gruntline" questions, and a lot of these are questions that need input from me (since I have access to the ship) in order for us to have an enlightening rather than purely speculative discussion. I don't necessary regret this, but I may not be able to participate fully, since there is a lot of other stuff I have to do here at the museum. Today, for example, I helped organize a visit from the US embassy, met with some people who want to develop a product for the gift shop, helped cut some timbers for the full-scale ship section we are building, and gave a tour. None of that is included in what is supposed to be my main task but it all has to get done.
I am afraid that there is nothing that forum members can do to help with any of this, all I am asking for is a little patience if I cannot provide an immediate answer.
Oh, and I would very much appreciate it if no one ever asks me again when Vasa II is coming out. I promise to keep everyone informed and give fair warning when it will appear.
Have a good weekend! I am off to a party at the US embassy (one of the nicer things on my to-do list).
Fred
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Post by jules on Mar 28, 2014 16:06:15 GMT
Hi Fred, Thanks for answering. Looks like the museum needs a Public Relations Officer or you need a Personal Assistant! All that in one day. If all we have to do is stay patient, that's what we'll do. Have a good weekend and stay away from the booze at the embassy Jules
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Post by matti on Mar 28, 2014 19:17:26 GMT
Ouch and I'll think of you when I feel I have a lot on my plate...
I'm certain everyone understand if you don't have time to reply to questions.
Enjoy the party!
PS. I guess that means you got to show the ship to Obama when he was in Sweden earlier. Must have been nice.
/Matti
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Post by fredhocker on Apr 2, 2014 7:13:39 GMT
Afraid that Pres. Obama did not visit the museum, although the embassy suggested it. I was informed by my bosses that if he did come, it is one tour I would not be doing, since they would pull rank so they could meet him.
I have given tours to a lot of supreme military commanders, cabinet ministers (usually defense, but US Attorney General Holder was here a few weeks ago), prime ministers and the occasional head of state, as well as Prince Charles and Prince Naruhito, the crown prince of Japan, plus a lot of US congressmen and a few media celebrities. Some of them are very interesting and interested in the ship: Charles studied archaeology at university and works with the Mary Rose, and Naruhito is a medieval maritime historian (Japanese emperors have to have an academic profession, a tradition started by Hirohito), so both were very knowledegeable and engaged. Away from the media, Charles is a pretty nice guy. The president of Bulgaria was a dead bore, not one bit interested. Atty Gen Holder was a good tour, he is pretty funny and sharp. Adrien Brody (the actor) was also a memorable tour, since he was very interested and came by himself, no entourage. My boss, who is a part-time rock musician when not at work, did Paul McCartney, which he said was fun. My wife, who is the head of conservation, showed Prince Andrew around, and he turned out to be good fun as well.
We argue all the time here about who we would like to show around, and there is a kind of "reserved" list among the four of us who do most of the VIP tours. I get most of the Americans, since the US Embassy normally requests that, and my wife (who is English) gets a lot of the British visitors. The museum director and I split the military and ministerial visits, while my section head splits the corporate visits with the museum director. Celebrities are a free-for-all, and usually depend on who is here that day, since they rarely book in advance. The director and I have an ongoing battle over who would do Bruce Springsteen if he came to the museum (he has probably already been here, since he tours Sweden almost every summer).
Sometimes the tours lead to some great exchanges. One of the US congressional delegations I did included the Representative from the district I used to live in in Texas. When I met them at the door and introduced myself, I told them that they needn't compliment me on my English, I was really an American working in Europe, in fact I lived for 15 years in Rep. B's district, and so it is a pleasure to see you all here. The Rep responded, "Thanks, Fred, I am looking forward to having you back in the district." I could not resist a softball like that, and responded, "No sir, you are not, I voted against you seven times."
Fred
Fred
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Post by matti on Apr 2, 2014 8:12:55 GMT
Ah, I read somewhere that Obama visited, but that was just a rumour then. That's a lot of famous people you at the museum get to meet and it sounds like a fun part of the work.
/Matti
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