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Post by fredhocker on Mar 6, 2017 7:56:49 GMT
Dear Peter,
The short answer is no. Both the fore and main masts are original and preserved to their full length (the lower masts). The foremast is a pole with scabbed on hounds, while the main is a made mast. Both taper in diameter more or less equally from the partners to the hounds (it is actually the typical "bulged" taper one expects in a mast), but the addition of the long hounds adds width. I suspect that what you are seeing on the Hohenzollern model is a representation of this or something similar. The hounds reach from the underside of the top about a third of the way to the deck and taper gradually, so they expand the width. I believe I have posted a drawing of the mainmast on this site before, and it should show you what I mean.
The so-called Amaranth model in the National Maritime Museum just up the road, a rigged model of c. 1660, has masts that taper in diameter, with long hounds, as well.
Fred
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Post by tromp on Mar 6, 2017 19:02:00 GMT
Many thanks for your input Fred but the description of the Hohenzollernmodel's mainmast is not an observation of mine, it is how Heinrich Winter describes the mast in his book about the model. Though this anatomy of a lower main mast is unusual, he studied and measured the model very carefully, clearly no-one knew the model as good as he did. I accept his description and am going to build my model's mast just as he described it. On the left is the Stern/bow-view, to the right is the side-view. .jpg) Kostenlos Bilder hochladenThis by no means reflects what we 21st century historians have in mind regarding a Dutch 17th century mast; Winter's rendering of the mast was clearly not the ONLY way to build a mast, it was probably one of many ways. Unfortunatly he doesn't decribe the fore- or the mizenmast, apart from them being made of, like Vasa's, a single piece of wood. What to do? Shall I make the other two masts according to the mainmast or shall I break away from this completely and build them to the rather more "conventional" way as we see them? I think I'm going to wait a while, before I make my mind up. Peter |
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reinhard
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I've been working since 2006 on a Vasa model starting with the construction kit of Corel.
Posts: 12 
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Post by reinhard on Mar 7, 2017 4:37:17 GMT
Hey Peter, hey Fred, your recent discussion answers some of my question regarding the masts (foremast, mainmast, mizzenmast). I would like to make certain some issues. The literature I have says, that all three mast are "made mast" - the lower masts. I'm afraid that is wrong. Fred wrote, that the foremast is a pole. I assume the mizzenmast too. So is this right? - Foremast: "The foremast is a pole with scabbed on hounds, ..." - or a single piece of wood
- Mainmast: a made mast
- Mizzenmast: a pole with scabbed on hounds - or a single piece of wood
Fred, if you don't mind would it be possible to give us the accurate drawings of the lower foremast and mizzenmast as you did for the mainmast? Maybe this will help Peter too.
Cheers,
Reinhard
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Post by fredhocker on Mar 9, 2017 8:34:40 GMT
Hej Peter and Reinhard,
Winter's description of the model's mainmast results in a shape similar to the mainmast on Vasa, except that as drawn here the hounds are faired into the cross section of the mast more completely. On Vasa, the hounds are more clearly an added element to an essentially round spar (see the drawing below of the mainmast for details).
The foremast originally had the same cross sectional shape as the main, but was constructed differently, as a pole with separate hounds. The fore- and mainmast hounds are overlarge on Vasa, since they have to house the sheaves for the halliard tyes, which are rigged in the English manner. See the attached drawing of the foremast for comparison.
The mizzenmast does not survive, so it is not possible to say how it was made.
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Post by fredhocker on Mar 9, 2017 9:00:50 GMT
Sorry, useless computer error logged me out in mid-message. Although the mizzen mast does not survive, we can reconstruct some of its dimensions from the partners and a surviving crosstree. It was smaller than the foremast, so I have no reason to doubt that it was also a single pole like the foremast. It did not need the oversized hounds of the fore and main, since the mizzen halliard tye is a single rope, which usually passes through a sheave slot in the mast. The hounds were probably added timbers in any case, as making them of one piece with the mast would require a much larger tree, of which a substantial part of the length would be wasted. The foremast drawing here is not completely accurate, since it shows the current diameter of the pole, which is somewhat smaller than originally. The hound edges should not project beyond as the drawing shows. Fred   |
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Post by fredhocker on Mar 9, 2017 9:14:06 GMT
To revise my initial answer to this question, I think that the Hohenzollern model represents a similar mast design to Vasa, but perhaps accomplished slightly differently. The photographs suggest a similar shape, although with a different degree of fairing and hounds which are not so wide. I see no reason that we should consider this form unusual, since it appears on both real ships (Vasa) and detailed models. Unfortunately, Witsen does not provide any detail on mast construction that I can find.
Fred
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Post by amateur on Mar 9, 2017 9:36:39 GMT
The same applies to Van Ijk: he gives quite a detailed description on how to make a round mast from square stock, and how to obtain the correct diameter at various heights, but none on made masts...
Jan
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reinhard
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I've been working since 2006 on a Vasa model starting with the construction kit of Corel.
Posts: 12
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Post by reinhard on Mar 9, 2017 13:31:49 GMT
Hey Fred, Many thanks for the drawing and the detailed information (It's a pity that your book Vasa II isn't ready yet.) Regarding the lower main mast drawing I have a question. What is this red marked part (see attached drawing)? It is visible? I'm studying it again and again but don't get it right. Cheers, Reinhard  |
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Post by fredhocker on Mar 10, 2017 8:15:56 GMT
Hej Reinhard,
It is an internal filling piece, to bulk out the core of the mast where it is a too thin on one side. It is not visible on the outside of the mast.
Fred
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reinhard
New Member
I've been working since 2006 on a Vasa model starting with the construction kit of Corel.
Posts: 12
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Post by reinhard on Sept 9, 2018 16:29:31 GMT
Hi Fred, I'm wondering how the whole length of the main mast is calculated. There are - the lengths of the lower main mast, the main topmast, the main topgallant mast, the flaggsteng
- the foot lengths of the said parts
- the topp lengths of the said parts
Because there is an overlap of the adjoining foots and topps the whole mast length is not the plain sum of the part lengths.
Can you help me to figure out how the overlaps of adjoining foots and topps are to get the right length of the main mast?
I'm also wondering how the foot and topp are measured, where they end or start.
Thanks,
Reinhard
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Post by fredhocker on Sept 14, 2018 11:38:19 GMT
Hi Reinhard,
In the 17th and 18th centuries, the overall length of a mast is usually given as two components, the main length and the masthead (the part at the doubling), and there are common proportions between these two used in spar tables. One usually uses the top of the hounds or the top of the trestletrees as the division point between the mast and the masthead. One did not normally count the "foot" as a separate area on the upper masts, since the mast length was used to establish the depth of the relevant sail, and the foot of the sail usually came down to the top, which is very close to the heel of the topmast or topgallantmast. On Vasa, we can measure these distances directly on the lower fore and main masts. From this we can see how much of the topmast was used at the lower doubling. From there, we have to rely on secondary evidence (treatises, models, inventories, etc.) to know what was typical of the period, although a lot of variation is possible. For the topgallantmasts, we know the depth of the sail, which should cover the length of the mast from near its heel to a little below the hounds. There is a similar overlap at the flagstaff. Flagstaff length is something less than the the length of the topgallantmast, but we do not really know how much, so we estimate on the basis of secondary evidence. We have a reconstruction drawing of the rig (there is a similar drawing in the Corel kit plans), if that will help you.
Fred
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reinhard
New Member
I've been working since 2006 on a Vasa model starting with the construction kit of Corel.
Posts: 12
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Post by reinhard on Sept 14, 2018 18:20:01 GMT
Hi Fred,
thanks for your detailed answer. I have to read it several times to understand it fully. What is "doubling"? Unfortunately I can't find any appropriate translation in my books.
If you don't mind I would be happy to get the reconstruction drawing of the rig.
Cheers,
Reinhard
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