I'm trying to learn more about Vasas armament and have some questions:
1. One of the one pounders had no carrier but was lashed to the deck. How would that work and look? How could it fire through the gunport when lashed to the deck? Are there any drawings of how that could look?
2. Where all the original carriers found, also the ones on the weatherdeck?
3. The BB kit has an army style two wheel carriage for the one pounders. The 1:10 has a set up with more normal carriers for the one pounders. Is it possible they used the army two whell version? If so it should have been unpractical (but looks pretty interesting).
4. The black paint for cannons, would it be for only the cannons, the carriers or both?
5. Could someone map the different models on this pic of Claytons fabulous cannons (it is Claytons pic, I hope its ok that I use it as it puts them side by side).
From top down: 1. One pounder. 2. Three pounder. 3. ? 4. ? 5. ? 6. ? 7. ?
1. No idea how the one-pounder was secured, the sources only say that it lacked a carriage and was stowed on deck, meaning it was not in use. 2. All of the original carriages for the orlop and gundecks were found, plus a few from the upper deck. The salvage records from the 1660s indicate that they lifted most of the upper deck light guns with their carriages. We have a total of 62 carriages plus one extra cheek. Among these are one three-pounder and I believe three or four for the stormstycken on the upper deck. We do not have the one-pounder carriage. 3. I have no idea why BB shows this gun with a two-wheeled land carriage with trail, this would be impractical on the quarterdeck. Although we have no diret evidence, the indirect evidence (height and size of the gunport, fastenings for breeching and tackles) suggests a conventional naval carriage for the one-pounder. 4. The account book entries say the black paint (which is lampblack) is specifically for gun carriages. 5. The guns in Claytons picture are, top to bottom: one pounder, three pounder, three sizes of stormstycken (20,42 and 82 nominal pounds), the new pattern light 24 pounder (principal armament) and the old pattern long 24 pounder.
To add to this, the following is a summary of armament I posted on the previous forum site:
The inventory taken just before the ship sank showed that the following guns were on board:
46 light 24 pdrs 2 heavy 24 pdrs 8 3 pdrs 6 howitzers of different sizes 2 1 pdr falconets
The light 24s were guns 2.9 meters long and about 40 cm in diameter at the breech, with a bore of 146 mm and caliber 17. The heavy 24s were much larger, probably about 3.5-4 meters long and over 45 cm in diameter at the breech. From the documents associated with the salvage of the guns, we know quite a bit about the lighter guns. The 3 pdrs were long and skinny, with calibres of 33-34.5 (about 2.6 m long to the breech ring), a breech diameter of about 15 cm and a bore of 74 mm. The howitzers were a mixed bag, with one 20 pdr of calibre 14 (looted from the castle of Prince Radziwill in Poland, and decorated with a dragon), three 42 pdrs of calibre 10.5 (cast in Poland in the 1560s) and two 82 pdrs of only 6.76 caliber.
The 24 pdrs were all placed at broadside ports on the upper and lower gundecks, leaving four of the 52 ports empty. The four stern chaser ports (two on the lower gundeck and two on the orlop) were also empty. All of the empty ports had carriages at them when the ship was found, and the latest armament plan (from May 1628) shows an expected armament of 56 heavy guns, so they were probably still waiting for the last eight 24 pdrs. We think that the four empty broadside ports were on the lower gundeck, but are not sure which ones and at this point it will be difficult to determine. The two heavy 24s seem to have been on the lower gundeck in the two forwardmost ports.
The light guns (3 pdrs and howitzers) were all on the upper deck, where there were 14 ports. There were also two ports on the quarterdeck, probably for the 1-pounders, although only one of these was mounted when the ship sank – the other lacked a carriage and was stowed on deck. There are mounts in the stern gallery of the great cabin for four swivels, to fire through round ports just below the large windows, but there is no evidence that these were ever delivered or mounted.
We have finished a detailed cataloguing of all of the surviving gun carriages (62 carriages). These are mostly for the light and heavy 24 pdrs. A light 24 carriage is about 160 cm long, 68 cm wide at the back end, and 60 cm high (not counting trucks). On typical trucks 45-50 cm in diameter, the trunnion centers are about 85 cm off the deck. The heavy 24 pdr carriages are similar, but almost 2 m long and about 75 cm wide.
We have one complete 3 pdr carriage. It is 120 cm long, 47 cm wide, and 55 cm high (without trucks). On 50-cm trucks, the trunnion centers are about 84 cm above the deck.
We have a couple of howitzer carriages, which are between the 24 pdr and 3 pdr carriages in size. All of the carriages are of the same basic construction and style.
Last Edit: Feb 5, 2014 12:51:35 GMT by fredhocker: Bad proofreading the first time round!
I thought the old pattern 24 pounder was a navy canon and would have guessed it was flat at the front end to avoid it from getting stuck as the cannon recoiled? And the new light weight pattern was in fact an army pattern with more ornaments.
If I understand you correctly they salvaged those huge old pattern 24 pounders wich should have been really hard due to its size and weight. I suppose they salvaged anything possible but it's so impressive they where able to do that.
No problem that you use my pictures! In fact, if anyone here needs to use my pictures as a point of discussion on a particular aspect of Vasa as Matti has above, feel free. I have a photobucket site and you can easily use it to add the photo link in posts here. It is always the IMG link that works for a particular picture.
The naval muzzle/army muzzle argument is a little overworked in many cases, I think. The Swedish navy distinguished between the two later in the century, when naval guns were supposed to have a smoothly tapering flare that would not catch on the port edge. I have not seen this type of muzzle on many guns of this period, and it may be a later practice.
The old long 24s weighed up to 2.5 tonnes, about twice what the new pattern guns weighed, but were still extracted from the lower gundeck by pulling them out through the ports. What I find impressive is that they did so little damage to the edges of the ports in the process!
My bad! I need to edit that document again. The one-pounders were definitely NOT swivels, they were carriage guns. Your interpretation of what a swivel gun is is correct. There were mounts for these in the stern gallery, but no evidence any were delivered.
The holes in the carriage cheeks are, on average, about 60 mm in diameter. Fragments of breechings were found in many of the carraiges, and these are usually a four-stranded rope 44-52 mm in diameter, although there are a few examples of three-stranded rope of similar diameter.
I suspect you mean the gunport hinges. We do not have any direct evidence for their thickness, as all of them corroded away completely, but other iron hardware of similar size for which we do have evidence suggests that they were around 6 mm thick.