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Post by jules on Jul 1, 2014 19:00:43 GMT
Hi all, I visited the 17th-century E81-wreck in Den Helder last week. I visited the wreck to have a good look into the framing of the bow. This was still a bit hazy to me. Proved to be an interesting visit: things were different than I thought. I also took a picture looking aft. In this picture some framing details can be seen so I thought it would be nice to post it here. In the foreground a section of the ship with a couple of cut floorriders on a keel section. Regards, Jules
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Post by jules on Jul 1, 2014 18:31:21 GMT
If it helps: there weren't any pinrails on the Dutch ships of the 1660's either. All ropes were belayed on pins in the cap rails. The Gent-model and the Hohenzollern-model do not show any pinrails except for the very large pin rail (if you would like to call it like that) on the inside of the beakhead bulkhead on the forecastle. Here are some pictures of the clean insides of the quarterdeck and the belaying pins in the cap rails. Also a picture of the beakhead bulkhead 'pin rail'. All of the Gent-model. In my opinion the situation on the quarterdeck and forecastle of the model can be compared to the situation on the upper deck of Vasa. Please correct me if I'm wrong Fred. Regards, Jules
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Post by jules on May 12, 2014 11:49:49 GMT
Good to have you back Fred and thank you very much for posting the plans.
Jules
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Post by jules on May 9, 2014 7:16:52 GMT
Hi Matti, I can only help you with your question number 2. Probably the lines around the mast were fitted like this. Regards, Jules
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Post by jules on May 7, 2014 11:08:06 GMT
Hello Fred,
Did anything go wrong?
Regards,
Jules
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Post by jules on Apr 25, 2014 20:39:58 GMT
Hi Jan,
Thanks for the update. It was great to have a look at your Vasa last weekend in Duizel. Looks even better in the real. Good luck with selling your house.
Jules
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Post by jules on Apr 18, 2014 14:40:50 GMT
Just to keep Shel motivated, another picture of the STAM-model. Jules
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Post by jules on Apr 16, 2014 7:12:31 GMT
Thanks Shel and Clayton! Great work!
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Post by jules on Apr 10, 2014 7:30:44 GMT
Thanks for sharing Fred. Love this kind of stuff. Good to hear these kind of pictures will be included in VASA II.
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Post by jules on Apr 8, 2014 8:20:03 GMT
Hi Clayton,
If Fred is able to e-mail the PDF's to me, I am pretty sure I will be able to find a way to cut them up in such a way that they will fit the 1MB limit of this forum. I will post the smaller PDF's then.
I hope this helps.
Jules
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Post by jules on Apr 8, 2014 8:04:06 GMT
Hi Fred, I'm sure the STAM-museum is not in the posession of the original rigging anymore, can't help you there. Maybe some remains of the original rigging can be found on the model. I can imagine that a restorer would keep the channels with the original deadeyes: too much trouble to change all that. And going from that, maybe the shrouds were kept as well. Here's an example of the main channel of the Gent-model. Hope it is of some value for you. How big is your office? You seem to be able to keep models and rigging there. I didin't know the original Amaranth-rigging was kept. Hagg did a good job saving it! Would be very interesting to have a look at this. Is there a way to obtain pictures of it? Regards, Jules
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Post by jules on Apr 8, 2014 7:46:18 GMT
Very nice work Matti.
Thanks Fred for the 3D-view of the capstan. Much better than a photograph. Are you on your way to display the whole ship in 3D? In that case, I can't wait for VASA III. Looks like you're using Rhinoceros for this. Am I right? Anyway, keep the good stuff coming.
Regards,
Jules
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Post by jules on Apr 7, 2014 20:10:17 GMT
First of all to Alexander: Identification of the model by the weapon shield on the breast of the double headed eagle, is not the way to go. The model has been restored in 1988-1990. After this restoration the model had a shield in other colors: red shield with a black stripe. The restorer, mister Birnie, was convinced that the eagle represented the Austrian eagle and executed the restoration accordingly. He moved the existing sword from the left hand side to the right hand side of the eagle and made a scepter for the left hand side of the eagle. The picture below represents the weapon in that guise.
Later, for some unknown reason, the sword and scepter were removed and the weapon was painted in the colors of Groningen. I am trying to contact mister Birnie to get the reason for the change. As soon as I have figured it out, I will let you know. Since the weapon shield probably does not depict the name of the ship, identification of the model is not easy. In 1913 Crone says he is still studying on it, but thinks this is a model of the Pacificatie of the Admiralty of the Noorderkwartier. Problem is: he does not state why he thinks so.
I found a weapon shield on the model that represents the crossed anchors and the three P’s (Pugno Pro Patria) of the Admiralty of the Noorderkwartier. This probably put Crone on the trace of a ship of this Admiralty. Since the model appears to be from the 1660’s or early 1670’s, I checked which ships of these dimensions were built at this period in the Noorderkwartier. Pacificatie (or Gedwongen Vrede) is one of them. A ships list of 1670 mentions the Pacificatie as follows (translated): Pacificatio, made Ao. 1665. Long from stem to stern 160, wide 40, depth 14,5, above 7,75 feet. Number of guns: 76. It generally is thought that the model is built to scale 1:16 and the length of the ship would have been 150 or 155 foot. The Pacificatie is larger: 160 foot. When we count the number of gun ports of the model we arrive at: 26 for the lower gundeck, 26 for the upper gundeck, 20 for the half deck (14) and the forecastle (6) and 4 for the cabin deck. A total of 76. This complies with the number of guns we found for the Pacificatie. Another characteristic element of the model is that the channels are in a higher position: one deck higher than usual. This is a ‘modern’ element that came about at around 1666. Birnie, who restored according to the model of the Hollandia at the Scheepvaartmuseum in Amsterdam, thought this was a mistake made during the 19th century restoration of the model. I don’t think so: a change like this would have left some serious damage to the model, damage I did not find.
Another characteristic element: the double long counterrails (slingerlijsten) at the stern. The upper ‘slingerlijst’ is usually shorter than the bottom one.
All in all: I still have to check if this really is the Pacificatie. Help, of course, is welcome. To Fred: Sorry, the rigging is not original. In a 19th century restoration the rigging was changed to the 19th century practice: e.g. the round tops and the caps were removed and changed for 19th century models. Birnie changed most of the rigging back to the 17th century practice and used the Hollandia-model at the Scheepvaartmuseum as a reference to do so. He did not change the tops and caps though. Since the Hollandia-model was rerigged as well, this model is not the thing to go by. The best example for this period of the 17th century is still the photo-set that is left of the Hohenzollern-model that was bombed to smithereens during WWII. Winter did a great job publishing his photo’s of the model and some other photo’s of the model can be found in other books. To Matti: The same goes for the painting of the model. It is not the original paint we are looking at. In the 19th century the model was painted in the horizontal black and white paint scheme that was characteristic for that period. The model was turned into a strange anachronistic item: a warship with the sheer of the 17th century in the colors of the 19th century. This was the color scheme of the model when Birnie started his restoration in 1988. The colors we are looking at now, are the colors Birnie applied. Still, the model is of great value. The hull shows remarkable detail and the interior is present as well. Since we lost the Hohenzollern-model, and the hull of the Hollandia-model is changed to make it look more like the Hollandia, this is the only reliable 17th century Dutch model of this period that is left.
Regards, Jules
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Post by jules on Apr 6, 2014 21:14:13 GMT
Hi Alexander, Thank you for your comment and thanks for sharing the results of your research into the model. I will get back to you about the information on the model as soon as possible. I'm sorry, I just don't have the time at the moment. I'm sorry you'll have to do with an extra shot of the figurehead for now. I promise to get back to you later. Regards, Jules
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Post by jules on Apr 6, 2014 7:09:56 GMT
Thanks for the reactions Clayton and Shel. The model is quite big. It measures 265 centimeters from stem to stern. The scale has been described as being 1:16. I personally think it is 1:16,5 because that translates to 1 inch to 1,5 foot. The 1:16,5 scale results in a ship length of approximately 155 feet. Shel, I will post some more pictures of details of this model every now and then. Just to keep you motivated. If you want to see other details, just let me know what details and I will post them here. I give you the figurehead for now. Regards, Jules
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