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Post by jules on Apr 4, 2014 9:52:29 GMT
Hi all, I've been to the STAM-museum in Gent (Belgium) yesterday. They allowed me to take a lot of pictures of the beautiful 17th century ship model they keep in depot there. Mrs. Baldewijns of the museum was so kind to arrange all this and she made sure the model was removed from the wooden box it has been living in since 2009. This was a once in a lifetime opportunity since the model was only available for one day. Today the box will be closed again for indefinite time. I still have a lot of post production work to do, but thought it would be nice to share one of the 'rough' pictures here. Enjoy! Regards, Jules
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Post by jules on Apr 2, 2014 7:08:53 GMT
Morning Fred,
Your test-PDF looks great to me.
Regards,
Jules
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Essex
Mar 31, 2014 21:15:01 GMT
Post by jules on Mar 31, 2014 21:15:01 GMT
Thanks for sharing Clayton.
It all looks very irregular and at the same time very symmetrical. I mean: the floor timbers vary in length, but they seem to vary the same at the starboard and larboard side.
Jules
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Post by jules on Mar 28, 2014 16:06:15 GMT
Hi Fred, Thanks for answering. Looks like the museum needs a Public Relations Officer or you need a Personal Assistant! All that in one day. If all we have to do is stay patient, that's what we'll do. Have a good weekend and stay away from the booze at the embassy Jules
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Post by jules on Mar 28, 2014 12:34:24 GMT
Hi Matti,
Thank you for your history-of-the-forum update.
And thank you for explaining to me why Vasa and this forum are special to you.
I can not speak for the group of course, but I would also like to know how we can help Fred and Clayton.
Regards,
Jules
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Post by jules on Mar 28, 2014 12:27:59 GMT
Hi Matti,
Looks good! Looks like you improved your carving skills in no time. What's next? More scratch carving?
Jules
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Post by jules on Mar 26, 2014 13:57:13 GMT
Hi Fred,
Many thanks for the very quick responce.
And about that other matter, your 'awkward' question. Please don't feel pressured to answer my questions. I am trying to tap into the knowledge of all members of this forum, not into your knowledge only (see my remarks in other threads). The other members must have gained knowledge while building models or in other ways, and, again, I would love to hear about their experiences. But, untill now, the only technical response I get, is from you. I tried to tap into knowledge already available, and found out that this knowledge is not yet readily available. There still is a lot of time needed to gather it. No problem, just say so. Please, do not get stressed over this.
Another thing. I was not aware that this was a forum for model ship builders only. Not being a member from the first hour, it looks like a general Vasa-forum to me. Luckily I can say I build models, so I hope I still qualify. One of the first models I built (as a boy), was a model of Wasa (the resin Airfix one), and that started my interest in 17th century wooden shipbuilding. My credo in model building is: if you do not know how it is built, how are you going to make a model from it? This means that, as I explained before, I love to get into detail as much as I can. Surely Clayton must have gone to that level of detailing with you as well, to build his 'best detailed model of the world' of Vasa. After all, the whole idea of writing a book on Dutch 17th century shipbuilding, originated from trying to reconstruct the ship Gouden Leeuw of 1666, only... to build a model of it! Since it became clear to me that Vasa was built in the same way as 'my' Gouden Leeuw, and it became clear to me that a guy named Fred Hocker was ready, willing and able to answer all sorts of questions on Vasa at an athletes pace, on a forum called 'Warshipvasa', I expressed my amazement and tried to benefit from this exceptional situation. Especially when the Dutch shipbuilding subject was brought up by Matti. I can only hope that I have expressed my amazement and gratitude enough to you.
And, you have to believe me, I've been trying hard to give something back as well. But, the only thing I can give back, I am sorry to say, is some knowledge about Dutch shipbuilding, not specific knowledge about Vasa. I hope it has become clear to you that I am more than ready, willing and able to return the favour in some way. If not, I'm sorry.
With kind regards,
Jules
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Post by jules on Mar 26, 2014 9:32:43 GMT
Cheers Fred.
Jules
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Post by jules on Mar 25, 2014 14:48:00 GMT
Hi all, Another question about the deck construction of Vasa. This time about the location of the carlings and their placement in the beams, and the location of the ledges. To support the deck planks between the deck beams, ledges are placed between the waterways and the binding strakes (schaarstokken). To support the, rather thin, ledges, carlings are placed between the beams. I included the drawing below to show what I mean. Willem Vos explains in one of his 'Bataviacahiers' that with Vasa, the recesses made in the beams to accomodate these carlings, are closed at the top. He concludes from this that the carlings were placed between the beams and, subsequently, the carlings had to be placed while the beams were placed. (On the basis of this, Vos also concludes some other things about deck construction. But that is not in any way compatible with what we see at Vasa, or with Witsen for that matter. Vos succeeded in puzzling me for a long time with this.) When I look at the drawing I included, I can see the ends of the carlings sitting in the beams. This suggests that the recesses in the beams were open at the top and that the carlings could be placed after all the beams were placed. Who is right here? I can also imagine a solution with both solutions combined: one end of the carling positioned in a closed recess, the other end positioned in an open recess. A second question concerns the location of the carlings on the different decks. In the drawing above, just a small section of the support for the upper and lower gundeck is shown. The rest has to be guessed at. The drawing of the upper deck (included below) is not very informative either, as it, again, only shows parts of the supporting deck construction; which is nearly non-existent anyway. Since the drawings included with VASA I do not show the carlings either, I wonder where all the carlings were fitted. The ledges can be seen in Vasa Plan 2, but only at the midship location. And at that location, for obvious reasons, no ledges can be seen in the position of the hatchways. So the position of the ledges in the deck sections between the waterways and the binding strakes is not clear. Are complete drawings of the deck supports available for each deck? Are they included in the 'old' drawing set of Eva Maria Stolt that Fred is willing to publish on this forum? I hope so. If not...... Who can help? Jules (P.S. I do not know what the provenance of the included drawings is. Downloaded them from the internet, somewhere, sometime. The texts are in German.)
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Post by jules on Mar 25, 2014 13:07:29 GMT
Just to keep the thread alive, the next bit of the 1629 'certer'. The stern post was long, at the front, measured with the curve | 30 | 6 | In the Square | 30 | 0 | Was thick at the bottom | 1 | 8 | Thick at the Heel | 0 | 9 | Thick at the top | 1 | 7 | Thick under the transom | 1 | 1 | Wide at the top | 2 | 0 | At the bottom | 7 | 7 | Falls backward | 3 | 8 | Had a curve of | 1 | 7 | The rabbet was deep | 0 | 3 1/2 | Was hewn, at first, above the Keel | 0 | 7 | Then hewn to | 0 | 3 1/2 | She went to the front sharply above the Keel | 4 | 0 | A heavy Knee was placed on the Keel, fitted with a hook to the Stern post |
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And that's all for the stern post. Would be interesting to know how this compares to Vasa. Greetings, Jules
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Essex
Mar 25, 2014 12:11:07 GMT
Post by jules on Mar 25, 2014 12:11:07 GMT
Hi Clayton,
Thanks for enlightening me on Essex. Solid bottom framing indeed! No open spaces whatsoever.
Regards,
Jules
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Post by jules on Mar 25, 2014 11:52:51 GMT
Hi Clayton,
Thank you for the explanation.
Regards,
Jules
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Post by jules on Mar 25, 2014 11:16:36 GMT
Hi Clayton, I guess you're Fred's non-official co-reader then. Has your Witsen-copy arrived yet? I am still waiting for Fred's 'Filosophy'. I am not that familiar with 19th century American ship building practice, but I suppose the 19th century MacKay sloop was built in the English way. I guess that would mean that the sloop is built with the standard English double framing, what would account for the complete filling of the hull with framing timbers. Or is the framing more random? Is there an internet link to the archaeological site, so I can have a look? Or do you have a picture of your reconstruction? Would be great to see. Engish practice was also, contrary to the 17th century Dutch practice, that the stern faced the water when the ship was built. But, regarding your remark about the ship being burnt to obtain its fasteners, I guess this ship was landed to be demolished? If so, the question would be: did they land the ship bow first, or stern first to demolish it? Please correct me if I got your whole story wrong. Regards, Jules
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Post by jules on Mar 24, 2014 21:09:42 GMT
Thanks Fred,
Very clear. I will change the construction in my sketch straight away!
Thank you also for the explanation of the form of the waterway of the upper gundeck. The raised lip which supports the first spirketng complies fully to todays traditional Dutch ship building practice: it forms a perfect dry seam (droge naad). Great to see the tradition is still carried on.
Kind regards,
Jules
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Post by jules on Mar 24, 2014 20:50:20 GMT
Hi Fred,
Thank you for the details of the fastenings of the beam construction in the after gallery.
And thank you very much for the photo of the test section. Looks great. Can't wait to see the complete section assembled.
Just out of curiosity: where does the oak wood for the test section come from? From Denmark, or simply from Sweden? On Bataviawerf a lot of Danish oak was used to build Batavia. I believe that at that time Denmark was the only place in Europe that had large enough oak trees.
Regards,
Jules
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