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Post by tromp on Jan 26, 2017 19:13:34 GMT
Well, it has been quiet here recently which doesn't mean I've turned by back on the discussion, I've been busy doing further research and I can say that I have come across some interesting points that might help to shed more light on the subject. I have received Wendy van Duivenvoorde's remarkable book "Dutch East India Company Shipbuilding" and she too raises interesting points about the "Vlakbouw" method used in the northern part of the Netherlands till early in the 18th century. As Miss van Duivenvoorde works in Australia, it is not surprising that her work concentrates on early 17th century shipbuilding, the Batavia in particular. There are nice scale drawings in her book showing different layers of interior and exterior hull planking. Kostenloses Bilderhosting We can see the gunport is perfectly square. Here's a view of the hull interior: Kostenloses Bilderhosting I have rotated the images slightly so they show the sheer of the hull more or less correctly. Looking at the interior view we can see the frames are tilted. There are also views of the gunport showing that the gunport lid is indeed perfectly square and not diamond shaped or rhomboidal or anything like that. It has been argued that by 1660-70 when the Hohenzollernmodel was built the vlakbouw method of shipbuilding was no longer used, instead had been taken over by the frame-first method. Looking at the fact that Nicolaes Witsen published his work in 1671 in Amsterdam to me it seems very unlikely that he did so describing shipbuilding technique that was no longer used in that area. Van Ijk wrote in the 1690s that parts of the northern states were still using the vlakbouw approach. Miss van Duivenvoorde wrote that the fame-first method had taken over completely early in the 18th century. that would be 40 - 50 years after the Hohenzollernmodel was built. It has been claimed here that the Den Helder wreck proves that by that time the frames were not tilted even on a Vlak-first built ship. What is left of the Den Helder wreck is mainly the hull beneath the waterline and I have to say it shows a striking similarity with the Vasa. Particularly around the stern. I have flipped this picture here to show you what I mean:
bild upload Now compare this with the iron-bolt pattern plan that Fred posted a while ago:
bild upload The similarities in the angle of the frames are stunning! Both ships were built in the Vlakbouw method and the frames beneath the waterline are stunningly identical. The tilt in the frames in Vasa's hull begins way higher up than what can be seen here. As the Den Helder wreck was also Vlakbuilt I have every reason to believe the same happened with the long since gone frames of the Den Helder wreck. I conclude that at least to me there is no archaeological evidence for frames ever being as upright as they were in the frame-first building method. Archaeological evidence we have from the Vasa, Batavia and most likely SO1 shows us that all ship built in the Vlakbouw method had tilted frames. I see exactly the same in photographs of the Hohenzollernmodel. If that model was built in the 1660-70s it was also built Vlak-first and the frames were certainly tilted. Just as I can see them in the pictures of the model.
Regards
Peter
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Post by tromp on Feb 16, 2017 17:40:01 GMT
I would like to show another little piece of evidence that caught my attention. This splendid chap here is part of the Den Helder wreck, the Dutch pinass-ship that was found in the Wattensee. The ship has been mentioned in this thread several times. foto hochladenfoto hochladenLike Vasa's and Batavia's gunport lids this one is perfectly rectangular. As it is crossed by part of a wale I'm sure we'll all be in agreement that this lid most likely comes from the stern section of the wreck and not from amidships or the bow. In the middle of the hull we wouldn't have had any wales crossing the gunports and not at the bows either. To me this looks very much like the lid of a Messenger Port almost perfectly identical to the those on the Vasa and Batavia. For me this too is proof that the frames of the Den Helder Pinass were also tilted as can be observed on the Batavia and Vasa and on the Hohenzollernmodel too. Regards Peter
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Post by fredhocker on Mar 10, 2017 8:22:10 GMT
Thought I would post a little information that came to light this week while we were opening up some of the hull structure for dendrochronological sampling.
As was discussed above, the gunport sides more or less follow the frame locations, but as I have pointed out here, in some cases the match is not exact, and one or both sides of the port are notched into the frame. This week we removed four gunport sills, two on the lower deck and two on the upper deck. In two cases (one on each deck), one side of the port does not correspond to the frame, and so the frame has been notched to a depth of up to 8 cm to make the port opening the correct width. I will leave it to others to argue over what this means.
Fred
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Post by tromp on Mar 11, 2017 10:39:37 GMT
Thanks for that info Fred, can we see some pictures? I guess the basic idea might have been that frames were to be used as gunport sides. When this worked, then fine - when it didn't parts of frames needed to be chiselled away to retain square or rectangle gunports. I think the reason for all this might have been because the frames in cross-section were also square. Thus the shape of the hull determined the angle of the frames.
I have tried to locate the Position of the Frames on the Hohenzollernmodel
bild upload
This is not easy and it needs to be done with more care but I did this to see if it works, and I'm certain one can create an accurate plan of the frame pieces using this method. It appears here too that some frames needed to be notched at the sides of the ports, particularly on the upper gun deck. On the lower deck most of the ports seem to match up nicely with the Frame pieces.
Peter
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Post by tromp on Feb 3, 2018 20:38:04 GMT
Hi all, I recently acquired the book "Dutch Warships in the Age of Sail 1600-1714" by James Bender. In it I found this image: The caption says it's the VOC Yard in Amsterdam around 1650. It is very difficult to make out from which angle we are looking at the ship. No doubst the spaces between the frames are yet to be filled with further frames. The frames that are in place tilt heavily towards amidships. This is possibly an exaggeration which we frequently see in baroque art. On the German Forum it was said that these aren't the Frames at all but the structure of some kind of temporary roof to shelter the unfinished ship. I don't think this is the case though. Any ideas? Many thanks in advance. :-) Peter
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Post by sterntreter on Mar 29, 2018 8:03:48 GMT
[...] I checked the pay roll of the Admiralty of Amsterdam of 1666, and found an entry for the payment of six model builders during six months. [...] Kind regards,
Jules
So sorry, for my late reaction. Since years ago, I researched the history of the Hohenzollern model (HZM). But I have a gap up to 1702, and I can't daily visit the na (ex ARA). Have you an source for the quote above? Many thanks! Sterntreter
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Post by jules on Mar 29, 2018 15:54:30 GMT
Hello Sterntreter,
You got me worried for a moment there. When I read your message, my first reaction was: have I really wrote that? Because I never found anything like that in the archives. After reading my complete message of last year, it became clear to me what went wrong. I tried to explain what would form evidence for the statement that the Hohenzollern-model was built in Amsterdam. An example of such evidence would be the discovery in the archives of a contemporary document stating that model builders were paid by the Admiralty of Amsterdam. I was not trying to say that I found such a document. I looked for it, but haven't found it. Sorry if my reasoning was not clear enough and caused confusion. To change the subject completely. Thank you for your contribution of the 23rd of March on the identification of ships of the different admiralties on the German forum. I have some bit of information that might help you along. The weapon shields of the Noorderkwartier and Friesland show two lions above eachother, not three. The two lions of the Noorderkwartier have their heads turned and are facing you, they are called leopards. The two lions of Friesland look straight ahead. Hope this helps.
Kind regards,
Jules
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