ara
Junior Member
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Post by ara on Dec 3, 2020 15:09:36 GMT
I think there was a housing in diamondform. On a real ship a little sack would be nailed on it.
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Post by amateur on Dec 3, 2020 17:25:10 GMT
Yes, but I have been scanning the pivpcs, all thise lower deck spuigaten do have this form. (And the same orientation: pointing forward). There seems to be method in this. However, it does not match the usual 'square with sack' model. Again: major alteration, or misunderstanding of 'how it should be'?
Jan
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Post by jules on Dec 10, 2020 14:31:10 GMT
Hello,
I admit the fenders are hard to find on drawings or pictures of Dutch ships from this period, but it seems they were used anyway.
Rein, I am not so sure I can find the small protrusion of the deckplanks of the 'luizenplecht' on the port side as well. And I am not so sure the small sliver of wood on the starboard side is actually a protruding deckplank. If it is a protruding deckplank, I think it is hard to make such a detail in a model, harder than making the 'normal' construction.
The v-shaped wooden contraptions in front of the scupper holes are a unique thing for the model. I never read anything about the use of them, and never saw them on other models.
I can, with a lot of imagination, find a reason for them though. As mentioned already, normally the scupper holes would end in a hose made of leather or sail cloth nailed around the scupper hole. I can imagine that this construction was rather vulnerable to waves crashing into them, and that some sort of protection was needed. Maybe the streamlined v-shaped construction would provide that protection.
Will post some more photos of the model next time,
Jules
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Post by amateur on Dec 10, 2020 21:14:43 GMT
The protrusion may be there, but as there is so much paint on the hull,
it is sometimes difficult to guess what is underneath it.
Jan
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Post by jules on Dec 24, 2020 12:31:25 GMT
Hi all, Just one picture for Christmas.  Enjoy! Jules |
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ara
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by ara on Dec 24, 2020 14:29:34 GMT
Hi! This great photo confirms a suspicion of mine. The upper rail of the galion needs to be low enough for the chase gun to have free field, and it has here. On the HZM this rail goes too high, it would be smashed by a gun in the same place. That´s the reason for the missing beakhead bulkhead on that model - they simply wanted to conceal this flaw! That bulkhead didn´t get lost, it was never there in the first place.
By the way - the flower sculptures nr 1 and nr 2, seen from the bow, need to exchange their places on the three rails: on both sides of the ship. Obviously they fell to the ground at some time, and that was poorly repaired. |
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Post by amateur on Dec 26, 2020 13:25:07 GMT
Hi Rein, Interesting thought, but we will never be sure with respect to that beakhead bulkhead...... With respect to the sculptures, I can see that someone made a mess of those: most standing on the lower rail, but not all (the first on the left side sitting too high, the third sitting too low), but how can you be sure that the first and second on both sides need to switch places? Seen from the side, that would be difficult, as the angle of the underside does quite neatly follow the lower rail. Seen from aside it is number three that seems 'out of line': sitting too low, not parallelto the others, but also considerably smaller than the two at the foreward end.  Jan |
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ara
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by ara on Dec 26, 2020 17:41:55 GMT
I think, the basic thing is: Every sculpture sits with its foot on the upper surface of the lowest rail and its top is on about the same level as the upper surface of the highest rail, and the sculpture is bolted against a frame. They cut notches etc. where there weren´t any because of hasty repaires. |
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Post by jules on Dec 27, 2020 14:35:17 GMT
Hello Rein,
Moving the chase guns to the beakhead bulkhead to shoot over the main rail was, for as far as I know, a common feature in shipbuilding in this period. We see it, for example, in contemporary Dutch models like Hollandia and William Rex. And we see it in England and France as well: Deane's doctrine and the Album the Colbert show the same feature. And we also see it in the Zeven Provincien reconstructions of Dik and Blom.
And now you tell me this is not the case in the Hohenzollern-model. But, when I look at the drawing of the front view of the model on Tafel II of Winter's book, I can see it would be possible to move a chase guns in this position, and that it would be possible to fire these guns over the main rail. Do you think this is a drawing fault? It would not be the first, but we better make sure.
Do you know if a front view photo of the Hohenzollern-model was taken by Winter, and if it is, could you post it here?
About the vases on the rails. For me it is very strange to find them on a Dutch ship. I never saw them on other contemporary models or in contemporary paintings. The English embellished the outside of the railings of their ships, but the Dutch did not.
If these vases dropped of the model and were misplaced during a repair afterwards... who can tell for sure?
Kind regards,
Jules
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ara
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by ara on Dec 27, 2020 18:56:22 GMT
Sorry, I don´t have such a photo, only this one below. But I´ve noticed, how extraordinary broad the fillingplank between the 3rd and the 4th whale is, nearly double the height as in the Gent model. Consequently the upper rail moves up, too, and gets in the way. Moreover, the galion on the HZM is shorter, steeper and goes higher up.
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Post by jules on Dec 28, 2020 12:13:52 GMT
Hello Rein, Yes, you're right, I've noticed the broad filling board on the Hohenzollern-model as well. And I also noticed that the head of the Hohenzollern-model is indeed different from the head of the Gent-model. But, what I meant to say was that the drawing of the front view of the model would suggest that here was room for placing a chase port in the right position in the beakhead bulkhead anyway. See the red circle I added to that drawing:  Would you say that this is a mistake in the drawing, and that it would not have been possible to position such a chase port in the beakhead bulkhead? Regards, Jules |
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ara
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by ara on Dec 28, 2020 12:52:40 GMT
The gunport for an 18 pounder of the upper deck js placed about 22 duim higher than the deck. I don´t think that leaves eough room, given the position of the upper rail.
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Post by amateur on Dec 29, 2020 13:40:26 GMT
You can also see on the drawing (and in some of the sideviews) that the upperrail is above the gunports of the upper gun deck.
A forward pointing gun would have to be on a platform to get clear of the gallion. Plcing guns at the bakschot would be of no use. All models I checked have their upper rail at the level of the luizenplecht
Jan
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