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Post by jules on Sept 23, 2014 12:22:58 GMT
Ah, much clearer now.
We are looking at the lower part of the small capstan: the lower part of the barrel with its spindle. The step of the capstan, which would normally be fixed between and underneath two deckbeams, and that would contain the hole for the spindle to fit in, is no longer present on the model. Maybe it was never there in the first place; I can't tell.
Regards,
jules
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ara
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Post by ara on Sept 24, 2014 13:21:58 GMT
Hi Jules,
I think, the hull of the Gent model is now pretty complete covered with your photos for me and all interested modelbuilders. One thing remains. Do you have a view of the Galion from above? I really would like to see the grating deck. I have already noticed that the so-called broekstuk is missing. As you may have noticed, I am not that interested in photos of the rigging, as most of it is later reconstruction. I think, Witsen, Winter and "Der geöffnete Seehafen" will do.
To Fred or Matti: Jules and I desperately need a Schwedish speaking person, who can transscribe and translate the short Swedish texts in the "Dutch shipbuilding in Schweden?"-thread here. To have an English translation would be really great. Thank you! Rein |
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Post by amateur on Sept 25, 2014 18:29:54 GMT
Hi Rein,
As i inderstand, the broekstuk is a part in the lower transom.
How and were did you notice it missing in the gent model?
(Or stated differently, which part do you call broekstuk?)
Jan
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ara
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Post by ara on Sept 26, 2014 9:45:54 GMT
Hi Jan,
Broekstuk also refers to the curved closing piece of the two upper rails of the galion just below the volute of the "Es" on the back of the lion. It´s missing in GM. I think I found that word in Van Yk (his galion description). Bye, Rein.
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Post by jules on Sept 26, 2014 11:08:14 GMT
Hi Rein and Jan, Jan, Rein is right about his 'broekstuk' in the beak. Van Yk describes this 'broekstuk' on page 106: "Van 't Broekstuk. Om het Broekstuk, dat tot Sluiting vande bovenste Regelingen, voor in 't Galjoen geplaatst werd, ...". I guess you placed a 'broekstuk' in your Corel Prins Willem as well, because Ketting shows it in his book (German version, page 77, drawing 7, Konstruktion des Galions, 1. Brookstueck). Rein, here's the picture of the grating in the beak of the Gent-model you requested:  Try not to look at the latrines: these are made and positioned by mister Birnie. Regards, Jules |
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ara
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Post by ara on Sept 29, 2014 11:19:16 GMT
Hi Jules,
Here´s a question. The gent model bowsprit is fastened with two gammonings. But I can´t see in the photos, how the inner one at the stempost is attached. It does not go over the upper big knee to the "kamm", as it should (as in the Van de Velde-Hollandia drawing). Maybe there is a photo of that section with the kamm? The "schegge" also seems to consist of at least two parts, as seen in your galion photo. Thank you! Rein
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Post by jules on Sept 29, 2014 13:44:52 GMT
Hi Rein, Yeah, the lower part of the gammoning near the stem is wound underneath or in an opening in the gammoning knee in front of the stem.  I don't think this was common practice. Probably the gammoning near the stem is a later add on. The Hohenzollern-model only shows one and most of the ships, if not all, of the Amsterdam Admiralty from this era only show one. Regards, Jules |
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ara
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Post by ara on Oct 2, 2014 16:37:39 GMT
 Hi Jules,
The upper stern has really nice festoons, full blown "quabbornament". Maybe you have one or two closeups of these? I´d like to study them in a little more detail. It´s for sure not an easy thing to carve them right. Thank you! Rein
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Post by jules on Oct 3, 2014 9:20:44 GMT
Hi Rein, Here's another something to satisfy your baroque needs.  This should get you through the weekend. Jules |
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Post by amateur on Oct 4, 2014 7:45:46 GMT
Are these carvings original, or did someone add to those somewhere at some time in history?
Jan
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ara
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Post by ara on Oct 4, 2014 16:57:08 GMT
Hi Jan,
I think, Birnie overpainted these festoons in part; like in the HZ-model they must have originally been gilded. I don´t think there are additions; the style looks completely authentic for it´s time; lush, mature quabornament. The sixties of the 17th century saw the highpoint of this style. If you look at the Prins Willem or the Eendracht, they clearly show an earlier stage. And the Vasa still shows many late-Renaissance elements. Marten Rettmer was the modern guy here with the earliest baroque feature, the earshell- and knobwork. Hans Soop´s book "The power and the glory" covers all of that. In the Gent-model there was only some messing with the coat-of-arms. Jules covered that earlier in this thread. I haven´t found any carvings, where I got the feeling, that´s a later thing. Bye! Rein |
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Post by jules on Oct 5, 2014 20:25:45 GMT
Hi Jan and Rein, The carvings must be original. As Rein explained: they look 100% authentic. And, the pictures of the model before it was restored by Birnie, show these same carvings too; they were painted in black and white and some gold details though. Birnie painted the whole model, including the carvings. Here's another example of the exquisite carving on the model. Enjoy!  Regards, Jules |
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ara
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Post by ara on Oct 10, 2014 21:14:53 GMT
 Hi Jan, this is for you. You recently asked about the originality of the carvings on GM. I want to share a revelation I just had. In this photomanipulation of mine I exchanged the two upper "lijsts" on top of the stern. I did that, because I now think, that that was the original arrangement. In every Van de Velde-drawing the broader lijst on top of the stern is closed in by two smaller but thicker ones. And all of them do not produce gaps, everything sits smooth. Today in GM we have quite ugly gaps there, as you can easily see in our Oct.3 closeup. The broad lijst is also at each edge a little hollow, so as to fit to the corresponding shape of the underside of the highest hackboard, the taffrail. In my "corrected" photo the two dragonheads in the middle also correspond nicely with the two claws of the eagle above. The curved lijst that surrounds the two little gunports on the bottom of the stern shows the same decorative pattern as the upper lower lijst, a so-called diamond pattern. Nice correspondence, too. So I think, that was the original setting. Older photos of GM, when it was still painted black and white, already show today´s "false" situation. So there´s room for speculation. Was it done someday in the 19th century? Was there an incompetent repair back then? These are only questions, of course. Note, that the broad lijst is also not a unit with the carvings beneath it. So I gave you something to think about. After all, as it came out in this thread, our model had some rough times during its lifetime. But I´m sure glad that it is still in existence, though a little damaged, unlike its sister, the HZ. Bye! Rein |
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Post by amateur on Oct 11, 2014 18:44:18 GMT
Hi Rein,
You could be right: this layout is more in accordance with 'normal practice'
Could you show the old picture of the gM you are referring to?
Jan
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ara
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Post by ara on Oct 12, 2014 16:28:09 GMT
 Hi Jan,
Here´s such an older black and white picture, (about 1925) unfortunately the only one in my possession. The lijst is painted black here, but also looks still out of place for me. Note the different appearance of the coat-of-arms. The lanterns are missing, too, but fortunately today are back again, except the one in the middle. Really don´t know, if it was ever there. Unfortunately, the picture was cut at the bottom, so that we cannot see the full shape of the "spiegel". Bye, Rein.
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