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Post by tromp on Jul 3, 2016 14:47:08 GMT
Peter, if the gunports follow the wales, then the decks would need to follow the wales too. Especially in stern this resulted in some very steep decks. Perhaps the change was indeed made around 1630. It seems that the shipbuilders were reluctant in cutting through wales amidships where the structure was weakened by removable gratings, the compromise seems to have been that it was acceptable to cut through wales at the bow and Stern where there were no gratings. Here I have photoshopped four individual Images of the Hohenzollnmodell together to one image. The rows of treenails have been highlighted with different colours. Kostenlos Bilder hochladenAnd this here was done at an early stage of construction of my model: bilder kostenlos hochladenPeter
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Post by tromp on Jun 26, 2016 14:03:57 GMT
Thanks for your replies Fred. Indeed many people say that the ports are cut out at a much later stage. However Witsen shows some illustrations that tend to show us that they might have been arranged much sooner. You can see in these images that the sills are already attached to the frames at a very early stage.
kostenlose bilderkostenlose bilder
fotos hochladen
kostenlose bilder
Also the Stuckenburgh drawing shows this, though many historians claim that this drawing illustrates a certain stage of construction.
I believe that the frames were tilted so that they were in a 90° angle to the deck beneath ist. This seems to apply to both ships being discussed here, the Vasa and the Hohenzollernmodel.
We need to bear in mind though, that the frames of a Dutch built ship are not a complete built unit like on English ships. The individual pieces of a Frame weren't attached to each other like on English ships. What we can see in the Images above are the "Stützen" the uppermost pieces of each frame. The Batavia wreck Piece gives one the impression that the frames also served as sort of filler pieces between in inner and outer hull Planks. I think the Dutch called the frames the "Inhouden".
Peter
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Post by tromp on Jun 25, 2016 13:24:28 GMT
Hello everybody,
this is my first message on this board, my Name is Peter and I'm from Germany. I am currently building a copy of the so-called Hohenzollernmodel in full size, i.e. in 1/22nd scale
bilder upload
This isn't the first model of a Dutch twodecker that I have built, the first was in the early 1990s and was in 1:50th scale.
I have noticed something regarding the Frames of Dutch-built ships which I would like to describe to you. This has been discussed on other fora, some scholars found my observations "interesting" others reacted downright furiously.
If you have a look at the Image posted below you can see that I have highlighted the rows of treenails with different colours.
bilder upload
The rows of ttreenails also show the positioning of the Frames beneath the hull Planks. The yellow lines Highlight the centerline of the putty on the quarter Gallery which are perfectly vertical. You can see the Frames are not. They are tilted Forward and the sides of the gunports are parallel to the rows of treenails (or vice-versa, whatever way you see it).
We can observe the the same on the Vasa bilder upload
I have seen Pictures of the Vasa in which can be seen that the treenails are also parallel to the gunports but I don't have any of my own, so here a Picture of the 1:10th scale model will have to do which I took in 1991
foto upload
My understanding is that the gunports were perfectly square, not trapeziodal or rhomboidal or anything like that. So the sides of the gunports were always at a 90° angle to the deck-surface beneath it. This can be taken for granted on the Vasa and my Research has shown, that it was the same on the Hohenzollernmodel. I am certain that the Frames weren't perfectly upright, they were tilted slightly in accordance to the sides of the gunports. Thus the aft frames were tilted forwards, the center-frames were upright and the forward Frames were tilted towards the Stern.
This can be verified by a relatively new plan of the Vasa: Bilder hochladen
And also the famous Stuckenburgh drawing Shows us exactly the same tilted Frames:
Bilder hochladen
Scholars argue that in Witsen there is no mention at all that the Frames are to be tilted. But on the other Hand Witsen also doesn't mention that the Frames are to be upright.
Thoughts are welcome!
Regards Peter
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